Mar 18, 05: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Posted by Garden_Of_Darwin (My Page) on Fri, Mar 18, 05 at 11:54

Hello! My husband and I LOVE the idea of soapstone countertops, but since we're doing a "budget" interim remodel of the breakfast room, we decided to do 16"X16" soapstone tile on the countertop to make sure that it's something we want to have (and maintain) when we overhaul the main kitchen in a couple of years. This counter may be removed in the future remodel, so we didn't want to invest the money in a slab that may be temporary. That being said, we're looking for advice on the install. Here's what (we think) we know:

1. Use 3/4" ply as a base, topped with 1/2" backerboard (hardibacker?). Tile is 1/2" thick. We're planning on cutting extra tiles into strips to use as edging. Should the strips be attached on the edge of the countertop, or underneath?

(sorry for the quality--couldn't figure out a better/quicker way to post a diagram like this)

Or is there a 3rd option that we haven't considered? Or is this just a BAD IDEA? We're planning on easing the edges using carbide router bits. Any thoughts?

2. We're planning on using PhenoSeal-- as recommended by Vermont Soapstone--anyone know where to find this product? Or are there any other thoughts on what product to use to set and grout soapstone? We want tiny, tiny grout lines...bordering on invisible if possible.

3. Anyone have any advice on placement of joints? There will be a 33"X22" undermount sink (that's a whole different issue!), so there will be a narrow strip in front of that, behind that as well as narrower than usual counter surfaces either side of the sink because we're doing a non-traditional cabinet placement. This will give you an idea of what it will look like:

We have left a 2 1/8" gap between the base cabinets and the uppers and will trim and seal any gap when done with the counter.

4. We will cut the ply and backerboard to the exact size of the top of the base cabinets, (or possibly cabinets + doors) and the combination of the 1/2" backerboard and the 1/2" tile will give us 1" overhang. Right? Anything we're not thinking of here?

5. FWIW, we're both pretty handy, have strong backs/legs and can be inventive when need be. We also have a large array of tools available: table saw, miter saw, inexpensive wet saw, diamond blades, carbide bits, etc. A pretty complete woodworking shop. Anything else we need to consider purchasing in advance? Perhaps a modicum of sanity? :)

Thanks in advance for any advice, suggestions, comments and (hopefully) encouragement...

Susan


RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

My only advice on this, from reading a post a while back, is to oil your tiles first (so long as this doesn't interfere with installation in any way - - Bill Vincent?), because the veining becomes more apparent after oiling. Another poster was sorry that she didn't have the opportunity to lay out the tiles with the veining visible, because some sections ended up looking a little *funky*. Otherwise, hopefully Bill Vincent will post and give you some tiling tips! G'luck!

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

WHERE did ya get the soapstone tiles?

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

PaigeCT

Thanks for the tip...that's a great idea! Does anyone know if this will interfere with adhesion?

Kasha Kat

It came from Vermont Soapstone Company and woo-hoo!!--it just arrived! Vermont Soapstone said 2-3 weeks and it's here in 2-3 DAYS! The crating job they did is unbelievable! We still have to finish uncrating it, but so far, so good--the first piece out is beautiful and in perfect condition. I can post some pictures if anyone's interested.

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Vermont Soapstone Company

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

WOW!! Do I have a time limit? LOL

1) Start with DOUBLE layer plywood, minimum 3/4" and 1/2" layers of plywood, and personally I prefer two layers of 3/4". With either choice, then add a layer of 1/4" backerboard, or if you want to keep the height donw, you could always use Ditra or another membrane in place of the backerboard.
As for the skirt pieces (front of countertop) they should be capped by the countertop, not vice versa, or they'll eventually be pulled off.

2) Use a latex modified thinset to set the stone, with a minimum 1/32" grout joint, to be grouted with unsanded grout.

3) I'd be putting the joint right down the center of the countertop under normal conditions, but being that your uppers will only be 2" above the contertop, you could probably get away with using the full tiles up front, and cutting in the piece in the back, which should be 8 or 9".

4)You want the skirt to be atleast flush to your drawer fronts, and preferrably out a little past them, so that anything that spills will go directly to the floor, rather than down the front of your cabinets.

5)In lieu of the sanity, you could always pick up a bottle of tequilla!! LMAO

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Bill, you can take all the time you want!! I was hoping you'd weigh in...:) Thanks so much for your thoughtful response! We love DIY, and it is SO helpful to have professionals who don't mind giving advice!

We can probably get away with adding a 1/2" layer of plywood--since we're using IKEA cabinets, we have a bit of play in the uppers. We can move them up if need be to accomodate a higher base. I would LIKE to keep it as low as possible though, as I am only 4'10". That's why the uppers are sitting on the counter--so I can finally reach something in the top of the cabinet!

Where would we be likely to find Ditra? Is it available retail? Also, I have read that epoxy/resin based sticky stuff is good for soapstone...I've heard mention of Pheno-Seal and "knife grade black stone epoxy", and some other epoxy that starts with an "L" and is available at "home centers near you!". Any thoughts on epoxy vs. thinset and non-sanded grout?

Do you know about the adhesion issue? Will oiling the tops interfere with the thinset/grout? I can wet them and get the idea of the veining if that would be better--it's just that its so temporary.

Thanks for the answers about the "skirting". BTW, in lieu of sanity, we bought a couple of cases of Guinness Draught at Costco. That should help get us through...lol!

Susan

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Q.--Where would we be likely to find Ditra? Is it available retail?

A.-- Yes, it is. You can actually order it thru Home Depot, although alot of their own associates don't even realise it. Just let them know it's in their Schluter catalog and price list.

Q.-- Also, I have read that epoxy/resin based sticky stuff is good for soapstone...I've heard mention of Pheno-Seal and "knife grade black stone epoxy", and some other epoxy that starts with an "L" and is available at "home centers near you!".

A.-- Epoxy as a thinset is fine for soapstone, although I think it might be a bit of overkill. It's not a serpentine stone, so you don't have to worry about it curling from the use of conventional thinsets, but if you'd rather use epoxy to set it, I don't see a problem. I wouldn't recommend grouting it with epoxy, though. I have a feeling that would be one tough stone to get the epoxy off the face of the stone afterward. Oh, and the "l" epoxy you're talking about is Latapoxy-- the forerunner of Spectralock.

Q.-- Any thoughts on epoxy vs. thinset and non-sanded grout?

A.-- Answered above

Q.-- Do you know about the adhesion issue? Will oiling the tops interfere with the thinset/grout? I can wet them and get the idea of the veining if that would be better--it's just that its so temporary.

A.-- I'd prefer to see the temporary wetting before setting. ANY kind of oil will inhibit both the thinset, as well as the grout's bond. I'd wait till after the installation to oil the stone. Matter of fact, I intend to do just that-- doing a soapstone backsplash a week from today.

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Thanks Bill! I checked out HD today regarding Ditra, and you're right...even their most seasoned employee had no idea what I was talking about--I had to walk him through his own catalog! Anyway, I think we're tending towards the backerboard option due to issues with an undermount sink. I replied to a post from "bemily" detailing the issues regarding our sink install--link below. Do you have any comments? Do you think we're nuts? I'd appreciate any input from a pro! Thanks in advance!

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: thread with info about sink install...

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Cut the hole in the backerboard, as well, and set your ink on the backerboard. Then you don't have to use the sliver pieces to hide the edges. Also, I'd can the 1/2" backerboard, and instead, use the two layers of plywood and the 1/4" CBU I suggested above. Especially with natural stone, you want that countertop to be as solid as it gets.

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Bill_Vincent

Thanks for your help on this! We decided to go ahead with 2 layers of 3/4" ply and will use a 1/4" backerboard. We're still debating the merits of epoxy vs. thinset/grout. Do you have an opinion about the best type of non-sanded grout? Color choice? Would black be TOO black? This soapstone is dark grey when wet--not a hint of green and little veining. I'm thinking a dark grey but it's not something I have a lot of experience in. I think we're going to try to get started on it this weekend. Be on the lookout for cries for help! Thanks again for your help!

Susan

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Wow - what luck to find this wealth of information! I'm kind of latching on to this trail with my own related questions - hope that's ok - this is my first posting.

I am a poor girl with expensive taste and have fallen hopelessly in LOVE with soapstone, which will look perfect in my soon-to-be-redone kitchen in my century-old house (with those white IKEA cabs, wood floors�). However, I am finding it difficult to find a supplier in MN of quality soapstone who will just sell a manageable-sized slab to me that I can fabricate with my handy-dad�s help (plus I�m handy too, with a nice circular saw). Well, there�s M. Teixeira, but as St. Paul is exactly in the middle of the country, it is quite expensive to ship - close to 60% of the material cost. I understand this may not be ideal (to fabricate myself), and actually I am now, after reading the various soapstone postings, a little fearful to undertake the job (though, they are pretty simple cuts - I still might do it!), but I had one more crazy idea...

Short of having "tshad" or "Bill_Vincent" move to MN and marry me and install my counters for me as our wedding present (jk), has anyone actually installed 12" sq tiles (like from Vermont Soapstone, just $12.10/sf) with VS's 2" edge tile on plywood for use as a countertop? Okay - I see Bill Vincent's recs on double plywood and backerboard, but wouldn't that leave plywood showing below the lip? I�m a little worried about how it would look overall too - maybe not worth it (?). The photos on the VS website are still difficult to judge - most are for floors or showers which are not oiled (I want as black and silky as possible) - I was thinking of abutting them/using epoxy like you do for slab seams, I guess hoping they would become virtually invisible and replicate a slab, as opposed to leaving a small space and mortaring them as with other typical tile treatments. Can anyone out there speak to this? Shy me away from it? Encourage me? Any other thrifty ideas? Photos? "Garden of Darwin" - what did you think of it on your test counter?

Thank you in advance for any input!

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

littlea

Kindred souls, I tell ya! We haven't actually done the countertop yet...we've cut the plywood and have the tiles and backerboard on hand, but we're still working out the details as to how to cement it all together. I think we're leaning towards an epoxy based "mortar" so to speak, and doing what you had suggested as far as abutting them like you would for a seam on slabs. I think we might give Vermont Soapstone a call to see what they recommend in terms of setting the tile as a countertop. I'll let you know how it goes, as it goes, and will take lots of pictures.

Oh, and just so you know...we're thrilled with the color/quality of the stone recieved from Vermont Soapstone--the crating job they did was amazing and the stones are beautiful! Dark grey with little veining (important for tiling if you want it to look like slab) and pretty hard. If you read some of the other threads about types of soapstone, you'll see that many people have abused the heck out of their samples and have found VS's stone to be one of the harder ones out there.

Hope that helps.

Susan

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Susan - kindred souls, yes! I love this forum already after knowing about it less than 24 hours. Everyone is so KIND and GENEROUS!

Good to know about the darkness, consistency, and hardness of the Vermont stone - figured it would be good, but wasn't sure whether their tiles would be the same quality or not. I guess I don't know why not. They did send a page not on their website (?) to me about setting tiles in general (I assume you'll get that when you call), but no one has told me yet, "If you abut and epoxy the tiles carefully, you can have a poor-man's soapstone countertop that is hard to distinguish from a slab!" which is what I long to hear. So I am very anxious to hear how yours goes - all the details!

Do I remember that you are using larger tiles and cutting a separate skirt piece to mount below the countertop ledge? Have you seen the 2" edge tiles that Vermont carries? Those with (2) 12" square tiles would make a perfect 26" countertop - can you think of a reason not to use the edgers that I'm missing (like the 1-1/2" of plywood/backerboard underneath, I suppose?)?

Oh I am so glad I'm not the only one thinking about this!

Take care,
Nicole

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Nicole

Budget is the only real reason we are not using the edge pieces. That would have made it really easy, but would have increased our costs by 25%. And who ever said we like easy?? If we did, we'd be paying someone else to do it!! HA!! The last two summers we've spent laying a 1200 sq. ft. flagstone and slate patio, so we're pretty practiced at heaving around heavy pieces of stone and dealing with the dust, mess and noise of cutting it. And, did I mention we're insane?? Maybe you figured that out...

Can you scan and send the sheet VS sent you?? Either they didn't send it to us, or it's buried in the bottom of the last box. I didn't see anything like that and it would sure help in our decision making. We're planning on calling them tomorrow, so I'll post what I learn. Thanks!

Susan

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

I very seriously considered going the soapstone-tile route. There are larger tiles available as well. I forget--16 or 20-inch squares. The edging tiles were really expensive in comparison, I thought. I even went so far as to order 2 12-in. tiles, just to see what they'd be like. I loved the soapstone. And I'd emailed Vermont Soapstone for a quote that included shipping. The 2 tiles I ordered cost $40-45, when shipping was included (to Missouri)! I kinda figured that by the time I had the backerboard installed, plus paid someone to install it for me--well, it wasn't going to be that much of a bargain. I still love soapstone, though.
If someone has an idea of what to do with 2 tiles, plus a bunch of odd-sized samples of granite, soapstone, and marble, let me know. A rock garden, maybe?? I'd be willing to sell the tiles to someone, if you're interested. :~)

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Susan-- rather than going with black, go with a charcoal grout. It won't be quite as intense, and will work pretty well with what you're trying to do.

Nicole-- sorry-- I don't think my wife would appreciate it!! LOL As for the edges being exposed, go to my site's countertops and backsplash page and look at the countertops there-- every one of them is doubled up 3/4" plywood for a base.

Here is a link that might be useful: My website's backsplash and countertop page

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Watching this thread with interest! We need a picture ofe a tile soapstone countertop installed, and even better one with the edge piece from vermont soapstone. I agree with nicole this sounds like a great DIY countertop project, and really need to know what it looks like completed. Are the shipping costs less for boxes of tile vs. a prefabricated soapstone slab? Inquiring minds want to know!

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

I'm starting to feel like we're at the top of the next wave of trendiness, or a life-size guinea pig! lol...�

Nicole
We talked to VS this morning. Their stone is Marianna and is from Brazil. They will likely send you a sample if you call and talk to them. I'm not sure if they charge for it since we like living dangerously and just ordered it sight unseen. Good thing it happens to be just what I wanted!!�
In case it wasn't clear, the skirting that we'll be cutting from the full-size stones will be sized and fit to completely hide the edges of the base of ply and backerboard (see grainy, dark diagram in first post). So, no worries about any of that showing.�

Bill_Vincent
Here's where we are: We've decided on 2 layers of ply fully encapsulated with epoxy. (My husband's from a family of wood boat people--they encapsulate EVERYTHING) We've got a graphite additive on order to darken the epoxy. The folks at VS said to either use thinset over backerboard, or to use a tile adhesive over just straight plywood. We're still thinking of using epoxy for the whole thing as mentioned by soapstonecounters.com and M. Teixeira. We might give one of these other soapstone companies that recommend using epoxy a call and see what they suggest.� If we use epoxy rather than thinset, can we drop the CBU? If it's only there for bonding, not for strength, and the epoxy will bond to the ply and the stone, is there another reason for the backerboard that we aren't thinking of? Dropping it would save us 1/4" in thickness, but we'd then need to route out an extra 1/4" in the top layer of ply to recess the sink so that the tile can lay over it (undermount).

lauren674
I can only tell you what I know from my communications with Vermont Soapstone regarding TILES and EDGING ONLY. Shipping/Crating is based on weight. You are paying for crating as well, and it is worth every penny. They build boxes to fit your stones and line them with styrofoam. In addition, each stone is separated by corrugated cardboard. There isn't a millimeter in the box for the stones to shift in!��
Here's an example of a quote that I got from them so that you can get an idea of what the costs are broken down:
1. (12) 12 x 12 x �" Soapstone Tiles (~120 lbs)���$145.20 �
2. (14) 12" Soapstone Edges (~70 lbs)�����������$169.40 �
-and-
3. Crating & Shipping � Residence via Fed-Ex���� $85.00
OR �

1. (8) 16 x 16 x �" Soapstone Tiles (~128 lbs)��������� $171.28 �
-and- �
2. Crating & Shipping � Residence via Fed-Ex����� $65.00 �

Hope that helps!�
Susan

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

And for comparison, here is a quote I received last November from M. Teixeira for slabs that we would cut and install ourselves:

2 slabs Rainforest Green Soapstone 72" x 30" = $838.50
Shipping to 60016 =
$325.00

I'll have to sit down and calculate a rough comparison of the cost of slab vs the cost of tile.

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Susan-- I myself wouldn't even bother with the epoxy for going directly over the plywood, save for the fact that you're coating the wood with resin, first (by any chance is your husband from Downeast Maine?), for which there's no need. If done properly, that countertop will be around a long time after you and I are gone, even without the epoxy. However, going directly over plywood, no matter what you're using is not an installation method I'd recommend to a DIYer. Regardless of whether you use a good portland cement based thinset or epoxy, there are several pitfalls that you need to watch for or account for that wouldn't be a problem using backerboard. I'd use it if I were you.

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Bill

Thanks so much for keeping up with this thread. I've been over at the John Bridge forums doing some research as well and will continue to try to learn as much as possible--thanks for your help in that! I will take your advice to heart--we'll go with the 1/4" backerboard. It will make the sink install easier anyway, since we won't have to route out as much of the top layer of ply to have the sink sit flush. BTW, do you know if 1/4" backerboard is actually 1/4"?? We found that our 3/4" ply is actually 11/16"--gotta love these nominal dimensions.

Are you dead set against butting the tiles up against each other with epoxy as a grout in this instance, and if so, why? Same reasons as on your website? (Nice site and work! :) If we set the stones down into epoxy rather than thinset on top of the backerboard, would we eliminate some of the issues with not using grout? We are planning to FILL the gaps with epoxy... Thanks again for your generosity!

Susan

P.S. The hubby's originally from South Jersey...:)

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Hi Susan - if you didn't get it already, here is the information Vermont Soapstone sent to me (sorry - it may be formatted strangely from the copy):

How To: Install Soapstone Tiles

You may need:

Level
� Inch Toothed Trowel
Masonry Blade in a Skill Saw
8-10 TPI Blade in a Jig Saw
� Inch Plywood
Cement Board
Tile Adhesive
Thinset Mortar (Silpro Masco) with a bonding agent
Two-Part Translucent Epoxy
Putty Knife
60 to 80 Grit Sand Paper in an Orbital
Mineral Oil, Old T-Shirt to apply

You have several choices:

You need to decide if you�re going to grout them or if you�re going to abut them.

You need to decide if you�re going to use Cement Board and Mortar or if you would like to use Plywood and Tile Adhesive. There are pros and cons to each.

For example: Where a wood product such as Plywood expands, and contracts. Cement Board does not.

Tile Adhesive stands up nicely with a � inch toothed trowel, where Mortar is a thinner product and doesn�t stand as high so you can easily level your tiles.

1.) You can use � inch plywood as a base. Next apply a tile adhesive with a � inch toothed trowel.

2.) Working from the middle out, line and level your tiles accordingly.

3.) Lastly apply your Edge Detail.

4.) Grout to match or contrast.

************************************************************

1.) You can use as a base Cement Board. With a mix of Thinset Mortar and a Bonding Agent about the consistency of brownie mix, and a � inch toothed trowel.

2.) Working from the middle out, line and level your tiles accordingly.

3.) Lastly apply your Edge Detail.

4.) Grout to match or contrast.

************************************************************

To abut your tiles:

Stone to Stone cover sides to be abutted 100% with Epoxy, very thin, drawing a putty knife across to remove any bubbles. Push together tightly and let set required amount of time.

Sand with 80 grit sand paper and then apply oil (Mineral Oil).

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Thanks Susan - I did just get Vermont to send a sample - I am now anxiously awaiting it! They didn't mention it was Brazilian tile, though - good to know.

To Susan and Lauren (and others interested) -
I have done some price comparisons. My counter is roughly 28 sf. Mind you, I'm smack in the middle of the country (East/West) and nearly to Canada, so shipping is extra-spendy for me.

Vermont Soapstone - tiles: about $800
Teixeira - 3 slabs: about $1200
Locally - 1 huge slab to cut myself, unknown quality to date: about $1100

I'm hoping to check out the local slabs soon, but would appreciate the ease of dealing with tiles, I think.

Bill - thanks for the photos - those were wonderful to see - helpful. I also like your discussion of groutless joints. I am wondering though, if the same problems would arise if I used tile adhesive (is this less grainy than mortar?) and epoxy just in the joints, so that they would be sealed just as well if not better (?) than with grout. The same way they do seams for slabs. Then sand the joints, as described by Vermont Soapstone. Do you think I could get a surface that didn't look too tile-like, but more slab-like that way, especially if I was careful in matching tiles and using ones with minimal veining, or am I just being too naive/hopeful?

As always - thanks everyone for your input!

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

First off, tile adhesive (i.e. mastic or premixed thinset) should NOT be used in this situation. It must be a latex modified thinset, or an epoxy thinset. Secondly, no matter how you do it, the tiles can NOT be butted up tight.
Susan-- You asked about butting them up tight and sealing the joints with epoxy. It won't work because once you've grouted and you go to clean the tile, the epoxy will only be sitting on top of the chamfered edges of the tile (if there are any), and will get washed away with the rest of the excess epoxy grout. You NEED a minimal grout joint, and even then, if you're going to use epoxy, you need to make sure you really push it into the small joints, or it won't go all the way in and the next day, it'll look like you never grouted the tile because the epoxy will sink in overnight before it hardens. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- in spite of the fact that a good friend of mine that I grew up with is responsible for one of the best selling epoxies around, I do NOT recommend DIYer's using it. It's a tricky thing to use, and very easy to screw up with in so many ways.

RE: DIY Soapstone Tile Countertop Install -- Seeking Advice

Ooo-kay. You just squashed my dreams.

Just kidding. This is what I need to know. Even though tile is cheaper, if I don't get the desired affect with it, it is still expensive enough that I'd have to think twice about it.

Though I should still wait to see what Susan does (Hi Susan!).. I may still be convinced. Plus there's the financial advantages - I'm squeezing every angle to do this as it is (so I apologize for my persistence).

It's not always a good thing to have a lot of time to plan, though - I keep changing my mind and inevitably, my ideas get more and more expensive as I go! :)

Happy Easter/Spring/Warmer Days Ahead!

posted by starpooh @ 4/20/2005 02:07:00 PM   0 comments

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